Questions on multi instrument looping

[nlowe]

Ok, so I am planning to setup a new looping rig that can encompass a large range of sound options. Im looking for a looping rig that can use a cajon for percussion, vocal mic, keyboard/synth, and guitar. Here is my ideas so far (keep in mind I will be using a switcher so there will be two runs:

Run A:
Guitar > Boss ME-70 > Morley a/b switcher (on the A route) > Fender Super Champ XD (out using the line out or mic....suggestions?) > Mixer (suggestions needed on which type) > Looper (suggestions needed, but Im currently leaning towards Boss RC-50) > PA setup

***Run A will be mostly used for a blues/rock sound thanks to the tube power of the Fender Super Champ XD. If there is a better way to loop a tube amp sound into a PA system, let me know.

Run B:
Same as Run A, starting with the Boss ME-70 > Morley switcher (on the route B), but bypasses the Fender Super Champ XD and goes straight to the Mixer > Looper > PA

***Run B will be used for a clean acoustic sound only

The cajon has a pickup with a volume knob so it will be plugged straight into the mixer, as will the vocal mic, and keyboard, and then sent to the looper.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions as I am open to anything that will make this work.

Do I need any D.I. boxes???

Also, I would like to be able to get a Explosions in the Sky/Mogwai Post Rock effect as well, but dont know what effects to use, and where to put them in the loop so they can be looped as well. Will the ME-70 be enough to pull this sound off or do I need more??

Please help me make this happen, and please suggest any gear that I might be leaving out, or that may be better for what I need.

Thanks,

Nate

[nick robinson]

One initial thought is that you're tied into the Fender - you'll get more flexibility if you can get your sound sorted towards the start of the chain, (ie at the preamp stage) then use the amp purely as monitoring.

That way the looper is the end of your "sound" chain and it's split into PA and monitor amp.

ME70s will undoubtedly give you the sounds you want, but separate FX units do allow for a lot more hands on twiddling power. Working out how to place your FX both pre and post loop will take some doing - I've yet to find an easy way.

It will all be worth the effort though!

[nlowe]

what order would you recommend?

[mrnatural]

I think you have the signal chain correct. If you have a line out on the champ then likely you will find a DI box useful. I suppose in a pinch a mic direct to the mixer would work, but then there is the cross talk going into the mic.

If I remember the champ amp much of the sound is the speaker so you might have limited champ sound through the mixer, unless maybe you use a power soak on the output. That would let the amp drive more at low volumes.

A nice thing to look for in a mixer is 4 subs that can be assigned or not. Then sub 1/2 can go to the looper and return to channels assigned to sub 3/4. This would also allow a stereo volume pedal to fad out the loops with out cutting your played sounds.

While using the RC-50, it may give you more options with scaling back your system, using its sub/main outs to assign sound to specific amps. One thing that might be lost is being able to route feedback from subs to aux in. I havent gotten time to look to see if I can use my volume pedal to fade loops in this system.

I am using the RC-50, but using it with full range amps to simplify my setup, so all sound color takes place before looping. bass, guitar, vocals, drum machine.

[andybutler]

I wonder how well it's going to work looping the mic'd amp thro' the pa. When the sound comes out of those pa speakers it may not compare well with the amp sound.
It'll be harder to get levels right too.


The 2 common (good)ways to amplify loops are:
1) put the looper before a guitar amp...only good for guitar. Seems like a no compromise solution for guitar tone, and indeed it is as long as you don't mind the lack of clarity when building up layers.
2) Use a neutral sounding pa, and generate any guitar amp tones with modelling or with distortion and filtering.

So what you want is both!
You could
1) use a couple of loop devices that can sync to each other.
2) use a stereo loop device and put the electric guitar sounds on just one channel, fed to the guitar amp.
3) use a loop device with routable output, like LP1 or RC-50.

Personally, I just use pa speakers, and a form of modelling, but then I never owned a great guitar amp.

The RC-50 might be ideal for you, especially with it's routable outputs.....but it's sound quality is not brilliant.
My observation would be that if you care enough about your guitar sound to carry an amp around as well as a pa then you might not want to have your guitar sound running through an RC-50

[dococ]

A good way to do this is to use a guitar amp with defeatable speaker and a nice sounding speaker simulation.
Examples that come to mind are the Fender princeton recording amp or, cheaper, the marshall class 5 and it's "headphone out" or blackstar HT-5. I think these three cover most of the tonal spectrum you might be after.
All of them produce awesome sounds straight to the board if you are opposed to a line 6 sort of solution. (I know I am).
If you REALLY love your current amp, you can get a dummy load attenuator type thing that has a simulated speaker line out to accomplish the same thing, but personally, I don't think they sound as good as the amps I mentioned.
For bass, I find an amp is not quite as crucial and I end up leaving it at home most of the time and using a sansamp bassdriver DI.
Having said that, if you LOVE the tone of your bass amp's preamp, it might have a line out you can go straight to the board with.
Everything else I do (percussion, ambient sounds etc.) is with mics straight to the board. I have a very small mackie (1202-vlz) and I have to say that the mic pre's on it actually sound great to me. If I were more of an audiophile I suppose I would have to spend some cash on a nice mic preamp but I have not had a reason to do this yet.

[nlowe]

thanks guys for all your help, I really appreciate it. Still have a few questions:

can I get a "tube" sound using amp modeling?

what do you guys think about the Boomerang III, Ive heard it is amazing, but I dont know much about it. Does it have multi-phrase looping? Is it easy to use? Good sound? Better than RC-50?

[wezloop]

The Boomerang III definitely has multi phrase looping, and I'm told the sound is cleaner than on its predecessor.

One of the features I was most interested in was the Serial Master Play Style. Very handy for setting up rhythmic backing very quickly, and a big plus compared to some more rudimentary loopers on the market.

I can't comment on its ease of use as I haven't laid a foot on one yet, but the layout seems pretty self explanatory and I imagine it would be very easy to use.

[andybutler]

Feb 18, 2010 0:24:59 GMT nlowe said:

can I get a "tube" sound using amp modeling?

You can even get a modeller with a valve in it.
...and you want some sort of speaker emulation.

It won't sound *exactly* like your amp, but no reason why it shouldn't sound good enough.
It's quite realistic to aim for a good emulation of what your amp would sound like if you put a mic on it and looped that thro' the pa.

[nlowe]

I also need some suggestions on mixers...any ideas? Brands? Prices?

[mrnatural]

"A nice thing to look for in a mixer is 4 subs that can be assigned or not. Then sub 1/2 can go to the looper and return to channels assigned to sub 3/4. This would also allow a stereo volume pedal to fad out the loops with out cutting your played sounds."

I have used a Yamaha 12/4, but the built in reverb was noisy. Looking at some of their current offerings, some include compressors which would be nice for percussion IMO.
I suppose if there were only 2 subs and they could be seperate from the main, that might work well.

About as much as I can add.

[andybutler]

Feb 22, 2010 4:29:17 GMT nlowe said:

I also need some suggestions on mixers...any ideas? Brands? Prices?

Allen & Heath ZED14 £300

[dococ]

I do love my Mackie 1202 vlz pro
Small but ROCK solid/